Open Forum Discussions and Debate

Eve, Thank you for presenting much food for the thinking folk....you have said a great deal...we must always remember that there is more than one side to any presentation..there are at least three, the right, the wrong and the presentation's....Every one has an agenda, and you need to know what it is before blindly following.

Mama - As you probably noticed - I question not only the Enviroes' Agenda, but also Big Business' Agenda. We all want clean water, clean air & a healthy place for future generations to live. We have made mistakes, hopefully we learn from them, and don't allow the developing nations to make the same ones we did. I'm afraid that the almighty dollar (or whatever currency) is fast at work. What do they say 'Follow the Money', but that isn't always that easy - sometimes Power & Money are be synonymous.

Yes, Eve, it can be an interesting dance. At what point does Weyerhauser's or Exxon's participation in a 'wise use' group begin to undermine its credibility? Thta's when you have to take into consideration the one thing more important to politicians than money...votes. I have worked with some of them, but always in parallel, never allowing them to speak for me, or giving them the lead and just signing on.

IAN: Yes (re-)election is the primary goal of a politician (obtain/maintain power). Organizational (corporations, unions, special interest groups, etc.) money is required to fuel their election and media backing. Politicians remember the idioms: 'Don't bite the Hand that Feeds You' & 'Go-along to Get Along'. If your campaign does not have a large 'war-chest', it is near impossible to be heard. The media tells us who has the money and the other candidates automatically become 2nd and 3rd tier candidates and generally ignored. Open debates are the only chance that they have to shine - but they are pushed out of or ignored in debates. In essence votes are bought and paid for. Without money (candidates own or deep pocket donors) and media drool, election is near impossible. As I said above follow the money/power. I'm afraid that today we have the best government money can buy. The question is who is buying and what is their agenda?

In Australia our Head of State is a person nominated by the gov and ratified by the Queen. When we sever our ties with England we want a Head of State to be (as has been in the past) a good and worthy person, a 'statesman'. We do NOT want the system whereby money appears to be the sole criterion for election. What is the alternative?

Was it something I said?

No Mary - I guess no one is interested in discussing issues. The question is where do we find a good and worthy person, a 'statesman'.

I think many people don't look beyond the outside trappings - are they good looking, their hair, dress, etc. Not who they are, what their values are, if they are trustworthy & knowledgeable or choice of friends and associates? What is their ability to manage, delegate & do they accept responsibility? Do they have the ability to listen to all sides, know and understand history? Are their decisions (especially personal) consistent with their values? None of this can be determined by sound bites and photo ops or sham debates. Today, almost everything a candidate says has been 'tested' down to the wording that plays best with the audiance. I want someone who speaks from the heart, believes in what they say. The art of debate is being able to take either side of an issue and sell your point. Being the 'best performing' candidate does not mean that they will be the best person for the job. How often have you heard - he looks presidential or he's cute or it's time for a woman or a ......... If this is the way people chose their leaders, will they get the best of what they deserve?

Oh Eve, You have said what I've felt but didn't quite know how to put in words....we need those we see as 'leaders' to see that 'we the people' need to feel we will be represented! Its okay that the wealthy have a say, yet it shouldn't be the only say that makes a difference. The old time politicians did a better job it seemed of addressing the common man's needs in closed smoke filled rooms, than todays debates do....The answer???....A start would be to remove the power of lobbyiest ....then moving to reduce the cost of running for elected office.....Add your faves, and we all get the idea...change is needed!...But the change must be directed towards a balance. Improving the majority, rather than just the minority folks. Poor and middle class wage earners, need equal access to opportunity that for too many years only the wealthy investers had! Medical care access, Jobs, Pension benefit protection, Retirement security....so many issues that get lost in the mix. We continually hear that these potections come from the wealthy...yet we know that when the masses are working and earning livable wages....the world benefits...Money is reinvested, because money is available for the basic needs rather than ......perhaps war????

A friend who has been working for several years now sending out packages to the troops recently received this email from 1LT Jay Schulz Mahmudiyah, Iraq. I believe it is worth sharing. It may take several posts to complete, so bear with me.

Hello all,

Although I already received my 'operation gratitude package' a while ago, your packages continue to trickle in to troops in our unit and other units within the area where we are operating here in Iraq. I had already sent an email with a picture of myself and my box of goodies. So, why am I sending this email out to all of you? I am beginning to see the results of your hard work all around me. I was moved to read more about your operation and I realized that this connection that we have brings us very close. It brings the soldiers that receive your well stocked packages a little closer to home and it brings all of your hard working volunteers a little closer to the front lines with us.

As we endure the heat of the summer, here in Iraq, I often find myself thinking about all the volunteers back there who are sweating back there to get these packages out to us. Just as cynics have questioned why I always make sure I have a bag of candy in my cargo pocket when I go on patrol in case I encounter a child along my way, there are those who may question what difference you are really making in the overall effort that our government is trying to achieve here and in other countries that harbor terrorists. You may have your own answer, but, if I may, I have an answer that you may wish to adopt as your own:

Just as every Iraqi child will grow up to have an opinion about American troops (good or bad), every member of the military who serves in a war zone will have an opinion about the support they feel American citizens are giving them. I may not be able to explain why it is so vitally important that I patrol the streets of an Iraqi child's town, but to be able to put a smile on their face by giving them a small token of friendship and kindness, I can leave them with an impression that may help them grow up with a softer perspective of Americans as they fulfill leadership roles in their community. In the same manner, your packages show that, no matter what you may think about the war and how our government policies shape the face of the war, you appreciate what we do. As soldiers open the packages and I see the excitement on their face that usually only comes from a package that comes from a spouse or a parent, I can tell you that your message is being heard LOUD AND CLEAR.

With deployments that last from 12 months to 15 months, many birthdays, holidays, anniversaries, first steps, dance recitals, and many other important occasions will be missed. This takes a toll on the morale of our soldiers more than most people can understand. Even though being home with our families cannot be replaced by a box of goodies, the love of a community can go a long way to help us get through those tough days.

Really, that is what I appreciate the most about what you are doing. Your sense of community restores the faith in humanity that can easily be lost as we face many tough situations as soldiers. Please know that the items in your packages are well thought out, heart felt, and much appreciated and have lifted the spirits of many soldiers.

I am sure if you talk to any soldier here, they will tell you they are 'just doing their job.' We don't consider ourselves heroes or worthy of your gratitude and it is humbling to look at the picture in the middle of the magazine sent with the package and see all those smiling faces that made this whole thing possible.

Please keep up the good work. You have inspired me on many levels to continue to charge forward, keep on keepin' on, and make all of you proud.

Yours Truly,
1LT Jay Schulz
Mahmudiyah, Iraq

Hey Eve, thanx for your letter. It brings to life the day to day realities of living there that we at home cannot realize. We,also, have a much smaller role there and, sad to say, reportage is mostly limited to gross acts of barbarism.

Eve...Thank you....those two well meant words are not used and directed towards ALL who make the effort that Lt. Schultz was speaking about, often enough. I thank you for sharing the letter. It brings them much closer to those of us here in the safety of our homes. Those men and women deserve the respect, appreciation and support from all of us at home! Its such a small, important thing we can do. May Peace Be With Them!

I debated which forum I should put this topic in. When I realized the voices in my head were arguing where it should go, it occurred to me that the debate forum was the place to be. Since it could be a debatable topic.

Chemicals vs. Home Remedies Cleaners

I personally choose the home remedies, though the chemical cleaners are faster at times.

Vinegar and baking soda are my two best cleaning buddies. Caution do not mix together.

Bathroom cleaning.
Use baking soda as a scouring agent. Takes care of soap scum and mildew.
For stains and mildew add just a little vinegar. Be cautious it will foam.

Add vinegar and baking soda to clear out drains also.

Vinegar makes mirrors and faucets shine. Mom used newspaper--but I use a paper towel or cleaning towel.

Mop the floors with vinegar and a little bit of dish soap--which I will have to look up my recipe for dish detergent--I went back to using Dawn for some reason.

Kitchen cleaning.
Same as the bathroom cleaning.
I put vinegar in the dishwasher instead of Jet Dry.
When I was by hand I put vinegar in to make my glasses sparkly and to get dried on stuff off.

Cleaning the object that cooks food.
Place a unreuseable container that can stand the heat of vinegar in the center of the rack. Turn on the instrument that cooks food to about 400° for a few hours or over night set at a lower setting.
Let cool a little. Sprinkle with baking soda and wipe away the grime.

Microwave
Place a glass with vinegar and little bit of baking soda (careful of the explosion) for 1 minute and wipe clean. Longer for heavier cleaning.

Cleaning laundry
Add either baking soda or vinegar to the wash.
Baking soda brightens and freshen clothes--great for whites.
Vinegar helps eliminate mold or mildew--especially during high humidity.

To freshen a room
I keep vinegar in a spray bottle and spray the couches and curtains to eliminate odors. I do not recommend you spray too much, for it does not dry fast.
I keep baking soda in ashtrays to absorb smoking odors.

If I missed something or something needs to be clarified just let me know.

Karen, Home remedies work well and I have used them in many of the same ways you have. They are also cheaper,so why not save money as well. Vinegar can also be a health aid, it helps to heal bruises from falls, or bumping into things, etc.....simply soak cotton balls in vinegar and apply it to the bruise for an hour. The blue discoloration is decreased andhealing is much quicker. If you have a sore thoat, make a mixture of 1/4 cup of vinegar and 1/4 cup of honey,and take a tablespoon 5 or 6 times daily. The vinegar will kill the bacteria and speed the healing. While these things can help us they also help our enviroment by reducing excess trash, and excess reliance on chemicals which add to the destruction of the ozone layer... I see all up...what are the downsides to this topic...I'm sure someone will be able to point to something that is eluding me...but in the meantime, I like to use home remedies where they do no harm as far as I see, and I have the time to wait. Perhaps thats a downside, but Karen has already pointed that out.

In line with some of the recent conversations, and armed with why manufacturers have started the practice of 'protective wrappings' on their products, I have wondered if others find the 'over wrapping' to be not only wasteful and costly, but also annoyingly difficult to get into. I have discontinued buying some products simply due to their hard to open packaging. Any thoughts?

Mamacita 2 here in England about a month ago there was an article on the news which showed a man in his local supermarket midway through a protest. What he does is as he is paying for his items he takes off all the excess packaging and rewraps the items in his own paper and leaves all the plastic on the till. His argument simply is that he didn't want it so they could keep it and dispose of it themselves. Although it was quite funny to watch he brought home a very good point. We are inundated with plastic this and that and most of the kitchen waste is the packaging itself. We then have to recycle it again for our local council to remove every two weeks. I would much prefer the old way of doing things using paper but the decision to continue wrapping in excess plastic will no doubt be here for a long time to come.

karen I much prefer simpler methods of cleaning if and when I clean. Most of the newer brands of cleaning products just don't cut the mustard.

André, I'm with you, especially the if and when

Andrè, That is a man after my own heart! I can only hope that someone will start listening....soon!

Mamacita 2--never thought about using vinegar for bruises--guess cause I am not a bruiser type of person.
Though I have been known to put vinegar in my bath to ease sore muscles.

Anre does that mean you use the old ways of cleaning or the chemicals they call cleaners today?

One of my classes is being used--just had a brain squirt.
Mamacita 2 you touched on this in your comment.

Anyway, we learned that what is absorbed by the ground goes into our drinking water. I have semi-stopped using tap water. I held up a glass of water one day and saw a bunch of little floaty things in it. Did not want to know what those floaty things were.
Did not know how environmental I was today, but I noticed that the detergeants I use are bio friendly along with my dishwashing soap. Which makes me feel good since the kitchen sink pipes are opened into the garden. And my washing machine leads to another garden which flows into our tank inwhich we eat the fish out of.

Non-related tail: I used to feed our fish dog food. One even my husband had caught a huge base (no fish tail) out of the tank. It seemed big enough to feed the two of us and two friends. Of course, hubby and his friend were extremely excited about this concept. So they cut the fish up to filet, but when they removed the insides the fish had gobs of dog food in his tummy. Needless to say--it has been a while since I have been able to eat fish out of our tank.

The whole business of excess packaging was not a marketing decision; it is one that grew out of the society we are in. That bulk packaging is there for one reason...to make things more difficult to steal, by virtue of their bulk.

Karen I use both methods, lots of lemon to clean the old oven, vinegar for the windows etc works a treat even though I get covered in newsprint which is not the most pleasant of things.
Ian I hadn't thought about that as a reason for packaging I just presumed that it was for the 'ultimate' way of stopping you getting to the food when you are hungry...

And who will make the post of the Great Beast, 666?

Why be afraid...he was banished before, have no fear when you walk with The One ....If you believe, as I do...its no problem...If you are not a beliver..it should not present a problem because its all meaningless....take your choices..make your move....May peace be with you!

Karen: http://www.abc.net.au/brisbane/stories/s1550017.htm

is a helpful link - this lady has taken things back to the basics, so much so that supermarkets are having a hard time stocking the shelves quickly enough with Bicarb and vinegar...

Thank you Billy--I went to Shannon Lush's site. I try to stay away from chemicals as much as possible. I regret not keeping up with my herbs that had so really good affects on cleaning, to health issues. They smelt and looked good too.

Maybe a project for Girlie-girl and me next summer. Is there a garden forum--I need a garden forum.

Start one Karen. That's a great idea. There's lots of gardeners here in Sudokuland.

A contentious issue perhaps... A secondary chat room put in place to sit beside the original. The new chat room could be a 'no holds barred' version, so anyone going in there would understand the implications of going in and thus no complaints if another goes in who is not to their liking, causes offence etc.
I personally think it would be good idea and may bring back some of the fun we all had logging in under different names and also it would enable those who have chosen not to register (thus ensuring their personal details are not used for any marketing ploy or such like) a chance to catch up with some old friends and new acquaintances..
The chat room as is now is there to protect people and I understand that completely but if we want an alternative it would be good if one could be provided… After all you don’t have to use it if you don’t want to.

They could be named Heaven or Hell - you choose!!

Andrè, I see nothing contentious in your suggestion of two chat rooms offering a choice for those who wish to be free from some of the current restrictions of the one chat room. One would not have to use either, as you say. Personally, I feel we have ample exchange oportuntities, with eveything else going on, personal pages, email,message centers, and free membership. I do see that those who choose not to join, thus share those perks, are basically shut off from former contacts in many ways. If an alternative chat room was available and enjoyed...I'd say great! So what could possibly be contentious about the idea????

I would enjoy it, André. It was a lot of fun, and anyone who was afraid of it would still have a refuge in the ''tamer'' one. This would be very different from the last time, since there was only one chatroom and a single [supply your own adjective here] individual could make things uncomfortable for some (or all) others. Myself, I would be willing to endure that for the sake of getting back a very valuable thing we have lost.

André - have you asked Gath? I think there would be many that would support your suggestion. I have asked gath if we could revert back to the 'old format' on a trial basis and he said 'No Way!!' ( from his response I gathered that the problems were huge - far more than we realised) - but this may offer a viable alternative. Keep us informed if you do go ahead and correspond with Gath, and if you need 'back-up' - let me know!

André
that is a great idea also, I didnt have an issue with the other chatroom either but I know Gath had big problems, much more than we all know about.
I do not understand however how it can be too difficult to make up a hotmail, yahoo or some other basic email address and then use any name you want, from any address, with any sign in name to attach to a free membership which enables you to use the current chatroom. you dont ever even have to use the email address for anything else but verification and if you mark on the update details page that you dont want notification if someone posts on your page then where is the issue. there is no invasion of anyones privacy.

Re: A new Chatroom

Andre
Having been one that was subjected to some problems/trouble in the chat room, I have welcomed the security of having registered members use the chat room.

I don’t necessarily agree with the idea for a new chat room. I do miss all the fun and banter that went on prior to registering, and I would love to be able to log back in anon and continue the fun and games that we had in there, and I also, personally miss those that used to frequent the chat room who as yet have not registered and are unable to return to the chat room.

With the current restrictions some have chosen to not register, as is their choice and right to do so; yet, it is their decision that is preventing them from using the chat room and continuing the friendships they have made.

Instead of a new chat room I would much rather prefer to be given the option in entering another name when logging into the chat room. Thus allowing the games and fun to continue, and still giving us the added security of knowing that all that enter are friends and members of the site.

Gath has provided us with many avenues in which we can all discuss and communicate with, even to the point of providing a personal/private messaging service, and the need for a 2nd chat room, just so those that use the site and decided not to register is one that I feel is unnecessary.

ooops lost the 2nd half of my post..
A new Chatroom. part 2
Andre
The excuse given by many for not registering as you have stated “thus ensuring their personal details are not used for any marketing ploy or such like” to me is one that l laugh at.

I would find it very hard to believe that these people have not set up email accounts for personal reasons, and do not in any way receive marketing, Spam, and other such non-relevant information from anyone. I have not given out my email address to the marketing company of Viagra, yet I still receive their emails twice a week. I don’t claim to be a wiz with the way the computer technology works, however from my understanding it is your IP addy/cookies you leave behind from visiting sites that allow these to happen. If this isn’t correct then perhaps the solution to this would be to ask Gath to provide a box in which we tick, whether or not we would like our details to be used for marketing purposes. For example he already has provided us with a tick box for us, in regard to receiving a notice that you have had a message posted on your page, or if we would like to receive his monthly newsletter.

I agree with rose, those that have not registered, could always create a sudoku email address purely for the use of this site, any information then received in that email address could just be referred to the junk box of their email account and therefore not be concerned of opening up spam or marketing mail.

Ok, my final word on this today LOL
Andre why not open up a new forum page titled 'Need for a new chatroom'. Doing this would enable others who visit the site to see the discussion and voice their opioning instead of wading through 17 pages of info in here. Also it would give Gath a bigger picture on everyones opinion and make his decision easier.

Wise words Angie.

I'll add my two cents worth. I have only participated in the site chat room once (and this might be only my first time in this discussion page), so I can by no means be considered knowledgeable of this subject. I have chosen not to participate. This site offers a chance for friends to be friends, and we have a lot of ways of doing it, as has already been pointed out. Personal pages, in-site email, forum pages and general comments. What is the need for false names or misrepresentation? If someone wants to say something, why do they need to pretend to be someone else to say it? If I, under my own name, offend someone, I want to know about it. I don't want to hide behind a false name. I want to know so I make sure I don't do the same offense again. My experience over the last year plus is that most hurtful comments, directed at a number of different very good people on this site, have been and continue to be posted anonomously. Why would we want to condone this on a new page dedicated to pretense? Gath has gone to great efforts to protect people's privacy and THEIR FEELINGS. Maybe if you create a new page, it should be called the ''Pretend Page, no holds barred, enter at your own risk'', but should Gath monitor condsidering this is his lifework, and why would he want to support such a page?